"fox & friends." >> tune in for the after the show show. >> brenda: the people have spoken. 83% of americans calling government spending out of control. so, what do some democratic lawmakers want to do? get rid of the nation's debt limits. they say it's keeping the economy down. but won't getting rid of it just push the economy down even more? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears and let's get right to it. the bulls and bears this week, gary b smith, jonas max ferris and along with todd schoenburger. >> gary get rid of the debt

ceiling best or worst thing for the economy? >> it's absolutely the worst thing, brenda. the left likes to say, well, you know, ronald reagan raised the debt limit 18 times, george bush raised it 7 times, bill clinton raised it 8 times. so, you know, both sides do it so it must be okay, and from the perspective of fair and balanced, it has to stop no matter who is president. we go through the same cycle, we raise the debt limit, spend more,en gout and borrow more, and raise the debt limit again and it looks like it's unstoppable, but this is the check and balance of how to govern our society. we can't afford the bills we have now to pay. someone has to say, no, spend what you have and let's move on. >> brenda: you know, it doesn't really mean anything. why not get rid of it. it's been used for political hay, both parties have made political hay out of it. >> that's right, every 18 months we're going through an economic crisis and here we

have another one brewing regarding the debt ceiling. let's get rid of it. i'm all for smaller government, but this economy right now, guys, still remains fragile and you can't have the american consumer having to worry about going through all the rigamarole in washington all over again, and that hits consumer reading and we don't need that right now. i'm all for smaller government, but let's get rid testi of it and be done with it. >> brenda: the fear is that we might get our credit rating downgraded and that's part of the debate and worry about the debt ceiling. >> that's ultimately worse than raising the debt ceiling is having default or crisis. the government gets their debt rating lowered again to the point they can't get lower rates, that means the mortgages rates and housing is coming back. it would be great to control the debt with the debt ceiling. as you see through history,

examples given it doesn't work at all. it becomes a political football, the other party not it in power, decides it's an of important thing. and president obama used to hate the debt ceilings. it's time to build something that controls the deficit properly and not arbitrary. >> brenda: toby, doesn't this basically give a blank check to washington saying we don't need a limit. at least when we have a limit we're forced to look at that number and realize how much we're borrowing. >> if that logic were true, they wouldn't have passed any of the spending stuff. first off, two countries in the world, united states and sweden who have a debt ceiling. people got rid of it, because what jonas is saying, it's political. and the second issue is, i don't want our economy held hostage and run by washington, right now, the buffoons in congress have more power over the economy with the, you know, stupid idea. if we give them this type of power we've hurt ourselves,

kick the power away as far as i'm concerned. >> isn't this a dangerous way to enforce fiscal discipline? shouldn't we be doing it because we have a budget d stick with it like most americans have to? >> well, we do have a budget, but the budgets aret being passed. they're not being adopted. look, anything that keeps the focus on reducing debt and deficit in my mind is a good thing. getting rid of the debt limit is papering over the real uncertainty, which is american consumers, american investors don't know if and when washington will ever adopt a sensible fiscal policy. i wish we had it come up every month. >> gary b. basically steve is saying this eliminates some uncertainty and that would help. we see consumer confidence at lows again. >> absolutely, brenda. look, this is how every family operates. they don't go out and make plans we're going to build a new addition to the house and

do this and that and we don't have any money to pay for it. let's borrow more. i think steve is right. this should be a regular conversation because as he points out. we've not had a budget passed by the senate in the last four or five years, for crying out loud. >> there has to be check and balance. jonas says let's get rid of it. my gosh let's get rid of everything and spend whatever we have out there. so like todd said we could stimulate the economy and all of that spending hasn't worked and buried us in a deep hole and we need to pay attention to this stuff. air right-- >> if the ceiling works, how did we get in the mess? it's been raised 119 times, and. >> exactly, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be raised at all and that's why you should have the budget and stick to it. reagan was wrong, clinton was wrong, bush was wrong. >> brenda: jonas get in there. >> and the reason market debt ceiling, every country, gree hit theirs and that's the debt ceiling your credit card limit goes up all the time when you

can handle more borrowing, higher income, paying off well. our limit would go up with gdp, know the arbitrary limit set by congress and no gdp indications and other countries have debt limits, that are tied to the economy and makes more sense an what we do. >> we could just print money. >> jonas, i like when you have a credit card and your limit goes up, you can't say oh, my limit went up and going to go downstairs in the basement and print more money which is what our government does. you actually have to pay someone back when you raise your credit card limit, eventually. and we're not doing that. >> brenda: todd, go ahead. >> and those are the long-term implications, guys, i get it. you're absolutely right. you can't get washington a blank check. however, right no with the current state of the economy, 25% of all growth is coming from the government anyway and you have to raise this limit. if you don't get rid of at debt ceiling right now, guys, do you have any idea what the

repercussions are going to be for the united states economy? we went through a drama with the fiscal cliff and going forward the last thing we want and finally we had some positive news out there. >> brenda: we had a lot of drama and this happened before in 2011. but, toby, markets still went up. look at us, we're at five year highs now and wall street doesn't seem to worry. >> we had 400 point down days and it caused a whole stress that was self-inflicted one of the points that people try to make here. gary, listen, in gary b land, that all things are perfect and the kids are wonderful and all of that stuff. but in the real world, and that this is an arbitrary number not related to anything. we could have the conversation every day and we have the spending, you know, it's going to happen. and we need to vote the people out. vote those jokers out and that's how democracy works.

>> and i'm moving to sweden because they have their act together. >> brenda: that's not why you're moving to sweden, gary b. >> doesn't congress give them the power, i would vote for the limit increase and that's what happens, putting in little things to bribe everybody to vote for a ceiling vote which never would have happened if we didn't have the ceiling vote could lead to more spending. >> you're going to have spending appended to appended spending that's going to slide in the last minute. every time you vote we have more spending anyway. >> something, something sensible just happened. the republicans in congress agreed to put the debt limit back to when the fiscal cliff occurs again, and we're going to deal wi all those things at once. >> great. >> and that's what gary b-- >> and the debt limit, that's a good thing that resulted from having a debt limit. ♪ kumbayah ♪ >> what? >> thanks, guys. unions may want to think striking because if cavuto's gang is right the latest tactics may be striking out.

that's at the bottom of the hour, but next, think the payroll tax hike is the only thing taking a bite out of your wallet? your wallet? guess again, the this is $100,000. your wallet? guess again, the we asked total strangers to watch it for us. thank you so much. i appreciate it. i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money?

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food costs. as consumers are getting smacked on everything from the checkout aisle to rents to airline tickets and fed saying we don't have an inflation problem. >> i would trust chipotle more than the government. and look at two parts, number one, we have the payroll tax now taken out 2% per month. $40 a month out of a paycheck, but nothing compared to what you're seeing at airlines, and certainly obamacare with the big price increase ins premiums and starts to come out of the paycheck and now it's not 40, 50 bucks, it's $80, 90, 100 a spending week. that's a big number. >> brenda: gary b, consumer prices were up 1.7%, less than 3% the year before, but even though the government says that's nothing. it's not hampering the fed at all. >> well, look, i think the number is accurate, to be honest with you. i can understand why people think that inflation is skyrocketing, because i think they see the most, gasoline and food when they go to the

supermarket are up about 1.8, plus 2% and they forget two things, one, that's not their enti budget. the average budget after household for gasoline is about 5% of the total budget and then they forget about the things they don't see that they just pay the bills, electricit is down, used cars are down, beverage prices are down. so, there's a lot of other things that they pay for every day that may just -- that they use every day they just don't see every day. i choose to believe the government, if you don't, then you can go the whole black helicopter route. >> brenda: okay, well, jonas, no inflation actually means the savers are getting hit, too. that's the other side of this story. >> i will note that chipotle uses organics that are hard to hedge and in the market like burger king to keep control on the food costs and definitely people get hurt by currently relatively low inflation. if you're living off safe investment returns, bonds, cd's, that's yielding below

inflation right now, a terrible situation. if you are working, a working person now, it's actually finally seeing their wages grow faster than inflation, for you it's wonderful in some ways. young people who don't have jobs don't see their wages go up, not on social security because they're so young and not getting inflation adjustment, they're hurting because a 2% increase is a lot. >> brenda: steve, what we're seeing is smaller paychecks as jonas said because of the payroll tax hike and rising prices. that's not a good combo, is it? >> no, rising pces aren't the real problem, because it's relatively small, it's within the zone of really sound economics, the inflation problem is wages. wages over the last generation have gone down in real terms. we need to see higher wages and then 2% inflation on the price side is no problem whatsoever. >> brenda: okay, todd. looking ahead with all the borrowing the government is doing. where do you see inflation going? even if u don't say it's

very bad right now, you see it going up? >> well, oh, yeah, we'll have inflation eventuallybrenda. the probably five years from now, after the current administration leaves office, but we could be looking at rates of 7 to 10% realistically. right now, though, steve is right. it's all about your wages. there is a perception that there is inflation that's out there, but it's not. it is payments, only because you're not earning enough money. eventually it will happen, but right now-- >> toby, health care premiums, tuition, food. >> steve makes a great point the fact that wages have been flat. one. reasons they've been flat, quote, unquote, because the benefits prices go up so much faster than inflation. so, the things that really matter. and actually, the price increases, worse or harder on a person because of the fact that wage is-- wages are a big part of measuring, quote, unquote, inflation, but everyday spending is actually up and in particular, we're getting killed. >> brenda: gary b?

>> your take home cash and extra taxes, obviously, don't help, but, yes, when you have the discretionary spending, it's just not there, so there father, there is a-- >> and gary b. >> but, toby's making my point when he says everyday spending, that's what the person sees, but what they don't see, they forget about, they forget about that their rent is relatively flat. they forget the gas bills that they only pay once a month are relatively flat. yeah, if you go to the supermarket regularly or go buy gasoline and drive by every day and see the prices, you tend to think that inflation is more rampant than it actually is. >> well, i believe our viewers, understand the difference, my friend, and i know that (laughter) the spending numbers, that they're getting at the end of the day is higher. >> brenda: okay. did you catch this? >> it's everything and it's really terrific story. >> that guy goes for it. >> he makes you crackup. >> a joker. >> so much fun, he never takes

himself too seriously. >> meeting him, intimidating. >> he's so down to earth and so cool and generous. >> he's not just flexing his muscles, now, saying one liners. >> here is another one liner, don't miss it! of course i'm talking about neil cavuto and his upcoming coverage of the presidential inauguration. it kicks off monday on fbn starting at 11 a.m. eastern time until 1 p.m. and live coverage continues here on fox, 4 p.m. eastern and back on fbn at 8 p.m. you're not going to want it miss a minute of it, i promise you. okay, the tsa doing away with the naked body scanners, that's the good news. and someone here says think of all the money these things stripped from the taxpayers. stripped from the taxpayers. time what are you doing?

nothing. are you stealing our daughter's school supplies and taking them to work? no, i was just looking for my stapler and my... this thing. i save money by using fedex ground and buy my own supplies. that's a great idea. i'm going to go... we got clients in today. [ male announcer ] save on ground shipping at fedex office. it'll cause cavities, bad breath. patients will try and deal with it by drinking water. water will work for a few seconds but if you're not drinking it, it's going to get dry again. i recommend biotene. all the biotene products like the oral rinse...the sprays have enzymes in them. the whole formulation just works very well. it leaves the mouth feeling fresh. if i'm happy with the results and my patients are happy with the results, i don't need to look any farther.

>> get this, the tsa is says tata to the tna. announcing it will stop using the controversial body scanners at airports by june. the cost to run the roughly 700 scanners in use? more than 450 million dollars a year. jonas, more proof we need to privatize airport security? >> well, i hesitate to say this the week before the flight, i may get the special treatment. they never should about been taken over by the government. and they haven't freed up the i.d. system to get on the planes. and this particularly is an example why you wouldn't want the government to run this program. because if the scanners work,

the fact that people don't like people looking at their privates should be completely irrelevant and in a consortium of airlines ran, who do you complain to. congress is involves and they say it has to be less privacy inducing, or the word, because they have to get elected a blah, blah, blah, and that's the end of it. >> brenda: gary b, what do you think? >> i'm shocked the government's screwing up some part of, you know, how we operate our daily lives, it's inconceivable to me. yes, i agree totally with jonas, it should have been privatized and we wouldn't have been on the hook for this whole scanner-gate or whatever it's going to be called in the next few days, it's ludicrous and it would have been more efficient and effective. look, all you have to do is look at the greatest invention probably to man that works great without government intervention, the internet. my gosh, we have things like paypal, ebay, and-- >> and without government

intervention works perfectly. >> i'm sorry. >> brenda: go ahead. >> what did the government do here, what did they do wrong? because it's a little inconvenient, i haven't seen a plane hijacked in over 11 years now, put it out there, guys, fire them when dramatic happens not because of inconvenience or seen in the the nude, it doesn't matter. and. >> the problem. >> it's ridiculous. >> and the government stepping in and saying we can't use it because people don't like people looking at them. >> well, there's he a privacy issue here, toby. >> there's a privacy issue a bone here and in israel going through tel aviv, it's run by the government, a semi private business though, and they have no hijackings, you get through in an instant. they use eye scans, retina scans and use technology to get people through and they're paid on that, and here they're getting paid to be slow and hey did you watch the show last night? >> and steve, steve, weigh in quickly. >> it's for your protection, like it's for your health going to the doctor's office

they shouldn't privatize this and shouldn't get rid of the scanners. >> brenda: thanks, guys and thank you, sve for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> brenda: we appreciate it. with millions of americans suffering from the flu, the name that could stop it from spreading. >> does anybody else have something else i can probably use. anti-bacterial wipes perhaps? with the spark miles card from capital one,

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